So instead of having a hard talk with an employee, you manipulated her to make a sweeping life change that you probably knew wasn’t in her best interest. Pretty cowardly.
If Jessica even exists (which I doubt) she definitely has grounds for an open and shut wrongful termination case on grounds of constructive discharge lol
If Jessica even exist, asking to talk to her mom on her behalf for a work related issue, means her family, her school, and her college failed to prepare her for the real world. I know this type person… I worked somewhere once and during summer we would get lots of teenagers and young adults asking for work. Surprisingly we would also get parents (of able body neurotypical children) coming in to get applications on behalf of their kid. Those returning applications were never looked at. If you couldn’t roll out of bed to collect applications, you shouldn’t work.
Hi, you seem to be misinterpreting my comment. I doubt she exists because this post proudly admits to illegal employment practices that could get the company very easily and successfully sued.
Fair enough. And unfortunately I was also conflating the original comment, your comment, and the ignorance and entitlement of the (real or fake) example employee. “Bad employees” are still employees and people, they still deserve protection from the law. And dignity. You’re right, the odds the author is exposing the company to a real scenario are slim to none. However… the example is triggering, there are soooo many entitled and willfully ignorant coworkers out there. The example might be fake and poor handling from HR but that type of employee exist and everyone hates them.
No. Given this is Florida, and “Jessica” is certainly an employee-at-will, “Jessica” has nothing resembling a wrongful termination case. “Constructive discharge” isn’t a claim when you can get fired for any reason, or no reason at all (as long as it’s not for an *illegal* reason).
At-will is the law in every state except Montana and D.C. While your point definitely stands, I still believe this is just made up rage bait considering that I think it would be risky at best for a company representative to just openly admit to intentionally manipulating an employee into quitting to avoid a PIP. They could very well be banking on the fact that the courts would clear them. That would be a very silly gamble to take for some substack engagement, though.
Are you positing the idea that urban values are not unique to urban environs? That job market differences don't inform employer attitudes? That would be a hard opinion to sell.
You are clearly trying hard to stick me with the liberal trope-tard tired epithets. Values and morals are not the same thing. Just like Urban and Rurual are not the same thing. Now, according to the script, you will assign me a vague christian religion that you will say is hateful. You suck at what you do.
Agree with Azora, we absolutely know. I think talking about how broken the whole system is is as much as some of us (or at least I) feel like we can do.
If you know, then your anecdote where daring to ask for that much time off- despite the policy being unlimited PTO- was “brazen” and “shameless” and an indication that “no-one knows how PTO works anymore” was… what, playing the villain?
What do you mean talking about the broken system is all you can do? The post that this comment is under repeatedly describes you actively working to prevent people getting as much leave as they wanted. Another thing you could do is… not do that?
Looks like this conversation has wandered from PTO requests into US vs. Europe quality of life debates! I love that people are engaged, but let's bring it back to the actual post.
Also a heads up that I'm going to delete comments with personal attacks or inappropriate language. Disagree with ideas (or me!) all you want, but please keep it respectful to other commenters. Thank you!
oh god unfortunately we actually do know, but there's not much we can do about it from inside the system (which is how it feels about many, many things in america rn)
I hope it gets better. I suspect it has to get much worse in order to get better because a lot of your countrymen are selfish bastards who won't admit there's a problem until it affects them.
As an Australian I find the whole American employment system absurd. We get 4 weeks per year PTO, which is accrued daily and paid out if unused. We also have paid sick leave and parental leave. Even more importantly, we have healthcare that is has zero connection to our employment status.
Average salaries in France, which is one of the wealthiest EU states are roughly half of American salaries. You’re more than welcome to your eight weeks of paid time off.
What's wrong with 45,000 a year? The median American income is $39k, according to the US census bureau. It strikes me that more than 50% of Americans would jump at $45k.
Interestingly, in W. Somerset Maughm's The Razor's Edge, $45,000 is more or less the same income (adjusted for inflation) that Larry has when he tells Isabel that he's staying in Paris and not going back to Chicago to take on a good paying job as she wants him to do. He makes a very good case as to why it's better to live on less than to chain yourself to your work for more money.
1.) you’re choosing to misunderstand. I’m sure that book is very fun and interesting and nice.
2.) tell us how much money you make, where you live, and what your house is worth
3.) According to LeMonde, “According to the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, the average annual salary in the US was $77,000 in 2022, compared with $52,700 (PPP) in France.”
4.) Under no circumstances will I have a statistics debate with you. It is widely understood that per capita GDP, salaries, and purchasing power parity in France is lower than in the United States.
“4.) Under no circumstances will I have a statistics debate with you. It is widely understood that per capita GDP, salaries, and purchasing power parity in France is lower than in the United States.”
You've got absolutely wrecked by the other commenters I'm afraid.
The amount of money is immaterial, money is just a means, not an end. The lifestyle I enjoy on my meagre income is unimaginable to someone from a similar socioeconomic background in the USA and I know this because I've spent considerable time comparing notes with them.
I earn the equivalent of about 33k USD. My wife earns considerably less running a little microbusiness that she loves though she doesn't need to work and she pensions off most of her income.
We own a decent house, a car, have no debt, she has a PhD and I have a masters that cost us nothing, we don't pay for medicine or medical care. I live 15 minutes bus ride from my office and my mortgage is less than a sixth of our household income. Our area has 3 parks, multiple shops and cafes, places to eat and multiple public transport options. We could do without the car if we wanted to.
My absolutely basic entry level job comes with a guaranteed, inflation protected pension worth several millions of dollars and we have enough disposable income that I am able to invest 50% of our net income each month while still taking holidays and such.
I am working class, my father was illiterate and yet here I am with that quality of life, over 10 weeks of annual leave per year plus flexible working (today I'm doing 8am to 3.30pm then going shopping with my wife for example) parental leave, compassionate leave and so on. I could take over 2 years off due to illness with no loss of income.
Oh and all my investment income is tax free too.
This quality of life on that income is unimaginable to an American, but with the exception of free school and free medical care it's basically what your people had 60 or 70 years ago before neoliberalism gutted your middle and working classes.
Dude, she's American. She can't comprehend things like quality of life, social well-being, or human dignity. Line goes up is the only metric of value in their lives. If that illusion was ever cracked the nation would see a mass wave of suicides and the remainder would be eating each other within the year.
I post the question because someone who asks that likely has not had to consider what it would be like living living on that, let alone somewhere where the cost of housing is high.
I should go on the record of saying there’s absolutely nothing wrong with making a modest $45,000 a year or 4 1/2 million dollars a year. But if you cannot understand that making $77,000 a year is better than making $52,000 a year than you are choosing to not understand.
The only people who literally say that they would rather make half of what they make Are people who’ve never had to live on it. Prove me wrong.
And if you can't understand that making $52,000 in a job that aligns with one's values, lifestyle, etc., can be better than making $77,000 a year, then you are choosing to not understand.
Studies have repeatedly found that those on lower European salaries often have more disposable income because of cost of living differences, state services, employer contributions etc.
The number on the pay packet is a remarkably crude way to measure this. Europeans often end up with higher *effective* salary- and eight weeks off! We sure do enjoy it.
And what are your medical costs? Educational costs? Transportation costs? Yes salaries are lower but there are other considerations. Plus you live in France!
Go read one literal book or research paper about dead weight loss of taxation in purchasing power parity and what an index five does over the course of 30 years.
You said you enjoy working and earning money more than taking holiday time, there is just no chance on early you are good craic at a party or on a night out.
But I guess if you want to believe that, I won’t stop you ✌🏻
I generally prefer securing my retirement to lounging at a cafe. Plus, vacation costs money (I dunno anywhere from 2,000-5,000 Euro). I want a secure future. It is totally fine for everyone to have different priorities! I wish you well.
It's not really uncommon - it's 27% of all jobs in the north roughly, and just shy of 22% in the republic. Split the difference that's roughly 1 in 4 people across the island. I grant that the contract probably isn't as good in the republic.
Even assuming whatever you picture to be the average job - basic legal minimums only with no additional benefits, do you genuinely a working class American is better off than a working class Irish person?
Er, that's a misrepresentation then. Most Americans get between 8 and 12 days off for national holidays. Some get separate sick time from vacation time. With all that added up, most probably get 6 weeks, possibly more. I get 7 weeks measuring that way, and my job is not especially generous in this way. My husband worked for a hospital and got a ton more PTO.
If we are including sick time, I get a full year with no loss of income and if I were to be too ill to return to work they would have to medically retire me and pay me a lump sum.
I wasn’t including sick time because sick time isn’t annual leave?
No now you're conflating long-term medical leave and disability insurance with sick days. Sick days are an annual allotment for taking days off because you have, say, the flu or a stomach bug.
I’m American and work for a state university. I get seven weeks PTO and we get 2.5 weeks over the holidays during which we don’t have to use our PTO. So amounts to 9.5 weeks. I think this is pretty normal for state jobs here. People like to crap on this entire country but the truth is it’s so big that it just varies greatly.
That's completely fair, that seems like a very good job in terms of working conditions in the US context.
Absolutely it varies, but my point is that someone from a similar socioeconomic background to myself in the US would not have the same quality of life I have.
Like my father was illiterate and my mother taught disabled kids, and here I am with a totally normal entry level sort of job - I own a house, a car, I can go on vacation and my wife doesn't have to work. That's the American Dream right there, but I don't believe that that actually exists in the US any more (and it's being put increasingly out of reach here too) but it's still very possible here for an ordinary person to live within their means, avoid debt and make a good life for their family (albeit there are some places where that is very difficult, like Dublin, London etc. mostly because of high rents)
If you know, then your anecdote where daring to ask for that much time off- despite the policy being unlimited PTO- was “brazen” and “shameless” and an indication that “no-one knows how PTO works anymore” was… what, playing a villain?
What do you mean talking about the broken system is all you can do? The post repeatedly describes you actively working to prevent people getting as much leave as they wanted! Another thing you could do is… not do that?
Just wait till I tell you about American tipping, where the vast majority of people have been duped, and even made to feel morally guilty if they don’t pay a restaurant server’s or other arbitrarily similar wage. Tipping has got to be the most amazing scam in history, and NOBODY seems to care - indeed, they bafflingly defend it.
I mean, that’s what tipping should be. Optional extra something for stellar service. Here it’s pushed by the very companies. A pizza place will say, “the driving fee is not a tip, please tip your driver!” Grub hub straight up says the driver can see your tip when decided whether to take the order on. When you pay with a credit card, a tip suggestion of 15-20% (always getting bigger) is suggested on the thing. A server gets a base pay of 2.50$ or something an hour, may be more now, but it’s less then minimum wage because tips are expected to cover the rest. And having worked in restaurants for 15 years, servers almost ALWAYS go home with more money than the cooks. I’ve heard people say “if you can’t afford to tip, you can’t afford to go out.” If someone does a shitty job, people tip because “that’s how they make their money, I can’t just stuff them”. Again, my only question is: why the hell is this the customer’s responsibility? Why are we made to feel bad when we don’t tip for purposefully shitty service. It’s so ingrained into us that even saying this stuff to other people as a thought experiment makes them look at you like a leper. It’s a mass collusion that companies are QUITE happy with.
Ironically, the low life expectancy is dragged down by the low-income folks, of which we have a lot. It's really hard to speak generalities about the USA because the regional and class variation is so enormous.
That’s my point. I’m not claiming that every single European is better off than every single American - I’m claiming that the average working class European is better off than the average working class American.
Oh we know. I work for an Irish company. Lots of Irish transplants in my office practically in tears over their PTO allotment. (They like the paycheck though.)
I have a lot of beef with the state, I don't think it's moral at all and it's massively dependant on enabling international tax avoidance. The Republic as laid out in the proclamation has never been achieved and I hope to see it become a reality.
Don't mistake my contempt for your government for contempt of your people, nor for love of government here.
I imagine it's the same for Americans - I love my country and my people, but I loathe the government and the ruling class. The people in charge are so totally unlike the ordinary people, I think this is probably the same in every country.
The place is run by neoliberal shills who are bought and paid for by anonymous, international capital that has no loyalty to anywhere and the people deserve better. Same story all over the world isn't it.
This honestly reads like a paradoy. Are you honestly bragging about convincing someone to quit and move state with statements you didn't belive purely to solve a minor inconvenience?
All while presenting yourself as a benevolent saint for allowing someone to work from home for a few days over the holidays?
At my son’s college, the dean said that a student he was meeting with about a disciplinary matter tried to hand him his phone, saying “My mother would like to speak with you.” The dean was stunned, then pulled out his own phone and said, “wait, I’ll call my mother and they can talk to each other.”
I was hiring work study students to help me on a research study. One candidate’s father emailed me citing his connection to the institution. I did give my boss a heads up but I didn’t hire her. At her age I would have been mortified.
If your policy says "unlimited," you shouldn't penalize people for having the brass balls to ask for a lot. Words mean things. I was penalized at work for taking two weeks of PTO when my parent was in hospice and dying. I was at an organization which prided itself on being employee friendly. It would be way simpler if people would simply accurately state their policies and then we can deal with the cultural problems.
The problem is US labor law says if you offer limited paid vacation and it’s unused it has to be cashed out, so it sits on the company’s balance sheet like an imaginary lead weight. “Unlimited” vacation is partly a workaround for that, and originally a genuine benefit for employees, that they don’t have to tolerate nonsense like not being able to take a break at Christmas if they just started a new job.
I was surprised by the different reactions to this, actually. From my point of view, admittedly not from the US originally, but my US employers have usually done this, most office jobs are shut down from Christmas Eve to New Years day, either as formal holiday days or as "the office is closed, so if you don't have PTO for the time its compulsory unpaid leave", and its not that odd for people to pad that out to a full 2 weeks. The position in the original article - basically we're going to insist you work even though there isn't any work to do - rather than offering unpaid leave is really strange to me.
I'm not sure I understand the opposing view. Yes, sophisticated employees will talk about planned vacation during the hiring process, but not everyone is a sophisticated employee, and it seems harsh to demand pointless presenteeism as a consequence for lack of sophistication.
It’s the holidays. Give people time off. This is not a hard problem. It was your choice to hire someone just before Christmas, and an accounting method is not a defense of inhumanity.
Exactly. I cannot even imagine what could be this important that someone couldn’t get a week at Christmas. And for Chrissakes, why does your time need to accrue *before* you’re allowed to spend time with your family at the holidays? Americans really are getting screwed so hard. Is the total destruction of family life and societal underpinnings like religious holidays worth a few extra bucks earned? Where is the red line? The saddest thing is, it’s all for naught insofar as the company (whatever it is) would probably be much more profitable and run much better if only the employees were more relaxed and treated like humans
See, it's not that Americans are "getting screwed", it's that they actively and visciously screw each other as a matter of course. Throwing your peers and subordinates under a bus to get ahead is as natural as breathing in their culture, it's just how business is done. You wring the sponge of disposable people's lives as hard as you can because you know that if you leave a thin dime of value in them it's just going to be taken by the next guy. Kill or be killed, eat or be eaten, fuck or get fucked. It's the American way and as long as the line goes up then the ends justify the means.
I'm honestly looking forward to seeing what happens when the line stops going up. People in the US flip out when the GDP grows marginally slower than expected. If it was to ever drop in a significant way I fully expect out-and-out cannibalism to take hold. You think the cartels are bad? Let's see how Chad and Stacey suburbanite react when their Tahoe costs a week's wages to refuel and cartons of eggs are a luxury to be auctioned off and concealed at the bottom of the bag for the trip home.
for as long as fiat currency keeps getting printed with the swipe of a keyboard and for as long as people keep *believing* that currency actually has value, I suppose the line will continue heading up. Although there do seem to be some wobbles even now that we didn’t see in previous years, so who knows? But totally agree with you, it ain’t gonna be pretty when it goes tits up. Also agree re the screwing over culture…so so disheartening
Fiat currency relies on the steely nerve and ruthless commitment to technocratic expertise of the Central Bankers in order to function. Good thing there's no threat of politicisation, populist capture, or outright corruption present in the American state aparatus today. Otherwise that could have really dire consequences.
you keep saying “the system is broken” ….. so maybe help craft a new PTO policy that allows everyone, including new hires, to be fully present with their loved ones over the holidays?
Asking for PTO for Christmas is perfectly reasonable. Imo the “accrual” system for PTO is BS - everyone should just start with their full PTO (prorated for new hires obvi) to use throughout the year as they see fit.
I’ve worked several places that shut down fully the week between christmas and new years. This should be the norm - there are very few jobs that are truly urgent enough to necessitate working
At organizations where I had the ability, I did give feedback on PTO policies to address these things (like pushing to close that week anyway) and also have advocated for improved parental leave policies. My ability to impact that varied based on the size of the organization and where decisions on holiday calendars, etc, were made.
I totally agree regarding the week between Christmas and New Years; I have yet to work any place where it was essential to stay open or where we couldn't have managed with very light coverage and communicated it was "emergencies only" to customers.
“Psychological warfare disguised as a benefit” you really have to be broken inside to see people’s desire to be with their family as a psychological attack against you. Seriously, you’re insane. The irony of that sentence alone is appalling.
"Jessica, a brand new hire, was not going to add any value to the business..."
That's why they call it Human _Resources_, workers. You are a resource. You are a commodity. You make money for other people and get tossed scraps when your betters are feeling magnanimous. You are cattle. Slaves rowing the ship.
The little story of emotional manipulation and shadenfruede at Jessica's breakup is the rancid cherry on this shit cake of a narrative.
This is why I have worked every single day in my adult professional career in public education. Here I'm building the future, not making cold piles of cash for someone else who doesn't give two shits about me.
P.S. — If you are compelled to write, “I'm not a monster,” you are, in fact a monster. Cf, “I'm not a racist, but…”
You're either going to fire me or not. So I'm going to squeeze as much out of this company for myself, as you are to me. That's my philosophy. The threat of termination does NOTHING to me. I'll find another job, I always do. I think some employers still rely on their workforce being terrified of being fired, to keep them docile and acquiescent to their demands.
Easy to say if you don't have children or health issues that you rely on healthcare for. I'm not saying your wrong, but the workplace here knows it can hold this over people's heads with ease and that's what makes it so egregious.
Nothing is easy for me to say. I sometimes suffer through spoonerism.
Your point is well taken, and I believe this sentiment is what contributes to the "trapped" feeling so many individuals experience with their job, especially if they aren't confident in their ability to quickly turn around a job and/or there would be a lapse in healthcare coverage.
Which is why we must all, all of us that feel this tension, continue at every opportunity, to rail against the machine. My railing in this instance, just happens to be focused on squeezing as much out of a company as they squeeze me.
This is exactly why I'll never work in corporate America. These policies are atrocious and they turn the people enforcing them into footsoldiers who think they're doing someone a favor by letting them work from home over a holiday. My family owns a small business and I handle HR among other things. We can't afford to offer unlimited PTO, but we let employees take almost any time off they want without pay if they're out of PTO, and I can't remember ever denying anyone vacation time they requested. The project manager figures out who will cover the workload along with the owner; that's literally their job.
I can't believe I actually read a whole post about this nonsense. The company, this author, and many of the commenters seem to have forgotten that it's really as simple as treating others how you want to be treated.
I just turned 35. Starting my own business to help nonprofits and women-owned small businesses manage their time and resources, including Human Resources, better. I have certainly dealt w my share of confusing and frustrating young-employee behavior.
That said, I told my boss I was moving across the country. Of course it was up to him whether he wanted to continue working with me in a remote capacity. He told me multiple times he wished I wasn’t leaving or that I he wished I would wait to leave. This made my brain explode. I wasn’t asking him if or when I could move.
There is a bizarre expectation with the older generation that a company owns the employee.
I've encountered some of this before and, unfortunately, I think earlier in career, I tolerated some of this and/or let it make me feel important instead of realizing I was being taken advantage of.
But he’s actually the best boss I’ve ever had! I have chronic health issues and am able to come or go as necessary. I’ve been able to turn down projects that conflict w my moral values, no questions asked. So it’s not that I think he thinks of me as a cog in a machine, rather that orientation is something he, himself, carries.
It's a different world that makes zero sense to outsiders. 2 weeks notice is expected but not enforced and people might job hop every 18 months. They shrug when people leave. And then they also tie themselves into pretzels worrying about people taking vacations.
Hint, the sky doesn't fall down, approve almost everything, all the time in most jobs. Flexibility is almost free.
How bad is company culture if managers are afraid of the psychological impact of some workers taking leave.
A company that's so stuck that it would have to deny all leave for 3 or 4 months must have huge operational difficulties. How would they keep going if things are truly that bad?
You can have angry burnt-out employees and high attrition who take their leave days when they leave. Or you can have appreciative well-rested employees who stay a little longer. And it costs the same. All you have to do is stop hating the people who make you money.
So instead of having a hard talk with an employee, you manipulated her to make a sweeping life change that you probably knew wasn’t in her best interest. Pretty cowardly.
And bragging about her absolutely despicable behaviour to a young woman who worked for her.
If Jessica even exists (which I doubt) she definitely has grounds for an open and shut wrongful termination case on grounds of constructive discharge lol
If Jessica even exist, asking to talk to her mom on her behalf for a work related issue, means her family, her school, and her college failed to prepare her for the real world. I know this type person… I worked somewhere once and during summer we would get lots of teenagers and young adults asking for work. Surprisingly we would also get parents (of able body neurotypical children) coming in to get applications on behalf of their kid. Those returning applications were never looked at. If you couldn’t roll out of bed to collect applications, you shouldn’t work.
Hi, you seem to be misinterpreting my comment. I doubt she exists because this post proudly admits to illegal employment practices that could get the company very easily and successfully sued.
Fair enough. And unfortunately I was also conflating the original comment, your comment, and the ignorance and entitlement of the (real or fake) example employee. “Bad employees” are still employees and people, they still deserve protection from the law. And dignity. You’re right, the odds the author is exposing the company to a real scenario are slim to none. However… the example is triggering, there are soooo many entitled and willfully ignorant coworkers out there. The example might be fake and poor handling from HR but that type of employee exist and everyone hates them.
No. Given this is Florida, and “Jessica” is certainly an employee-at-will, “Jessica” has nothing resembling a wrongful termination case. “Constructive discharge” isn’t a claim when you can get fired for any reason, or no reason at all (as long as it’s not for an *illegal* reason).
At-will is the law in every state except Montana and D.C. While your point definitely stands, I still believe this is just made up rage bait considering that I think it would be risky at best for a company representative to just openly admit to intentionally manipulating an employee into quitting to avoid a PIP. They could very well be banking on the fact that the courts would clear them. That would be a very silly gamble to take for some substack engagement, though.
Every value she’s expressed in this article is reprehensible- especially her remark about having a child. She’s urban trash.
...what has "urban" to do with anything?
Are you positing the idea that urban values are not unique to urban environs? That job market differences don't inform employer attitudes? That would be a hard opinion to sell.
What are "urban values"? Are you pretending that people out in the sticks are some kind of bastion of morality? Because if so, ha. Hahaha.
You are clearly trying hard to stick me with the liberal trope-tard tired epithets. Values and morals are not the same thing. Just like Urban and Rurual are not the same thing. Now, according to the script, you will assign me a vague christian religion that you will say is hateful. You suck at what you do.
It's peak American to define "unlimited PTO" as "roughly 4 weeks"
I get 10 weeks and 2 days of PTO a year in an entry level job in Ireland. Americans seem to have no idea just how hard they are getting screwed.
Agree with Azora, we absolutely know. I think talking about how broken the whole system is is as much as some of us (or at least I) feel like we can do.
If you know, then your anecdote where daring to ask for that much time off- despite the policy being unlimited PTO- was “brazen” and “shameless” and an indication that “no-one knows how PTO works anymore” was… what, playing the villain?
What do you mean talking about the broken system is all you can do? The post that this comment is under repeatedly describes you actively working to prevent people getting as much leave as they wanted. Another thing you could do is… not do that?
Looks like this conversation has wandered from PTO requests into US vs. Europe quality of life debates! I love that people are engaged, but let's bring it back to the actual post.
Also a heads up that I'm going to delete comments with personal attacks or inappropriate language. Disagree with ideas (or me!) all you want, but please keep it respectful to other commenters. Thank you!
oh god unfortunately we actually do know, but there's not much we can do about it from inside the system (which is how it feels about many, many things in america rn)
I hope it gets better. I suspect it has to get much worse in order to get better because a lot of your countrymen are selfish bastards who won't admit there's a problem until it affects them.
As an Australian I find the whole American employment system absurd. We get 4 weeks per year PTO, which is accrued daily and paid out if unused. We also have paid sick leave and parental leave. Even more importantly, we have healthcare that is has zero connection to our employment status.
It depends on the job and the state. I get 5 weeks PTO at a corporate job. My husband gets the same but tons of sick time that accrues at a state job.
and in many cases one can take unpaid leave and even buy more leave
Average salaries in France, which is one of the wealthiest EU states are roughly half of American salaries. You’re more than welcome to your eight weeks of paid time off.
Please enjoy living on $45,000 a year .
Thought experiment: Earning 45k and paying buttons for healthcare or earning more money but paying oodles for health insurance.
Your call.
What's wrong with 45,000 a year? The median American income is $39k, according to the US census bureau. It strikes me that more than 50% of Americans would jump at $45k.
Interestingly, in W. Somerset Maughm's The Razor's Edge, $45,000 is more or less the same income (adjusted for inflation) that Larry has when he tells Isabel that he's staying in Paris and not going back to Chicago to take on a good paying job as she wants him to do. He makes a very good case as to why it's better to live on less than to chain yourself to your work for more money.
1.) you’re choosing to misunderstand. I’m sure that book is very fun and interesting and nice.
2.) tell us how much money you make, where you live, and what your house is worth
3.) According to LeMonde, “According to the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, the average annual salary in the US was $77,000 in 2022, compared with $52,700 (PPP) in France.”
4.) Under no circumstances will I have a statistics debate with you. It is widely understood that per capita GDP, salaries, and purchasing power parity in France is lower than in the United States.
Average American income overall: $74k
Average income when excluding the top 10 richest: $65k
When excluding the top 50: $48
When excluding the top 1,000: $35k
So fwiw, Paul’s number is more accurate to lived experience. 🤷♀️
“4.) Under no circumstances will I have a statistics debate with you. It is widely understood that per capita GDP, salaries, and purchasing power parity in France is lower than in the United States.”
You've got absolutely wrecked by the other commenters I'm afraid.
The amount of money is immaterial, money is just a means, not an end. The lifestyle I enjoy on my meagre income is unimaginable to someone from a similar socioeconomic background in the USA and I know this because I've spent considerable time comparing notes with them.
I earn the equivalent of about 33k USD. My wife earns considerably less running a little microbusiness that she loves though she doesn't need to work and she pensions off most of her income.
We own a decent house, a car, have no debt, she has a PhD and I have a masters that cost us nothing, we don't pay for medicine or medical care. I live 15 minutes bus ride from my office and my mortgage is less than a sixth of our household income. Our area has 3 parks, multiple shops and cafes, places to eat and multiple public transport options. We could do without the car if we wanted to.
My absolutely basic entry level job comes with a guaranteed, inflation protected pension worth several millions of dollars and we have enough disposable income that I am able to invest 50% of our net income each month while still taking holidays and such.
I am working class, my father was illiterate and yet here I am with that quality of life, over 10 weeks of annual leave per year plus flexible working (today I'm doing 8am to 3.30pm then going shopping with my wife for example) parental leave, compassionate leave and so on. I could take over 2 years off due to illness with no loss of income.
Oh and all my investment income is tax free too.
This quality of life on that income is unimaginable to an American, but with the exception of free school and free medical care it's basically what your people had 60 or 70 years ago before neoliberalism gutted your middle and working classes.
Huh? Tell you where I live and what my house is worth? I just wanted to know what's wrong with living on $45,000 a year.
Dude, she's American. She can't comprehend things like quality of life, social well-being, or human dignity. Line goes up is the only metric of value in their lives. If that illusion was ever cracked the nation would see a mass wave of suicides and the remainder would be eating each other within the year.
I post the question because someone who asks that likely has not had to consider what it would be like living living on that, let alone somewhere where the cost of housing is high.
I should go on the record of saying there’s absolutely nothing wrong with making a modest $45,000 a year or 4 1/2 million dollars a year. But if you cannot understand that making $77,000 a year is better than making $52,000 a year than you are choosing to not understand.
The only people who literally say that they would rather make half of what they make Are people who’ve never had to live on it. Prove me wrong.
And if you can't understand that making $52,000 in a job that aligns with one's values, lifestyle, etc., can be better than making $77,000 a year, then you are choosing to not understand.
> It is widely understood that per capita GDP, salaries, and purchasing power parody in France is lower than in the United States.
It surely looks like they make less of a parody of purchasing power.
Correct. I made a typo. Parity. I will go kill myself now.
America was so excellent that you left.
My husband is French. lol
Studies have repeatedly found that those on lower European salaries often have more disposable income because of cost of living differences, state services, employer contributions etc.
The number on the pay packet is a remarkably crude way to measure this. Europeans often end up with higher *effective* salary- and eight weeks off! We sure do enjoy it.
This is it, it's peak American to want to focus on comparing wage packets only and ignore everything else.
And what are your medical costs? Educational costs? Transportation costs? Yes salaries are lower but there are other considerations. Plus you live in France!
Go read one literal book or research paper about dead weight loss of taxation in purchasing power parity and what an index five does over the course of 30 years.
What a sad little life Ellie
Somebody’s gotta do it!
Sorry for partying ✌🏼☺️
You said you enjoy working and earning money more than taking holiday time, there is just no chance on early you are good craic at a party or on a night out.
But I guess if you want to believe that, I won’t stop you ✌🏻
I generally prefer securing my retirement to lounging at a cafe. Plus, vacation costs money (I dunno anywhere from 2,000-5,000 Euro). I want a secure future. It is totally fine for everyone to have different priorities! I wish you well.
I’m Irish. Vanishingly few people besides teachers get ten weeks of holidays.
I get 8 weeks plus 12 days for public holidays and such.
So that's a total of 10 weeks, 2 days.
I'm in the north, so it's slightly different in terms of entitlements and such to a comparable job in the republic.
As I say, it’s extremely uncommon. What’s to be gained by pretending it’s a realistic comparison with American conditions?
It's not really uncommon - it's 27% of all jobs in the north roughly, and just shy of 22% in the republic. Split the difference that's roughly 1 in 4 people across the island. I grant that the contract probably isn't as good in the republic.
Even assuming whatever you picture to be the average job - basic legal minimums only with no additional benefits, do you genuinely a working class American is better off than a working class Irish person?
Er, that's a misrepresentation then. Most Americans get between 8 and 12 days off for national holidays. Some get separate sick time from vacation time. With all that added up, most probably get 6 weeks, possibly more. I get 7 weeks measuring that way, and my job is not especially generous in this way. My husband worked for a hospital and got a ton more PTO.
If we are including sick time, I get a full year with no loss of income and if I were to be too ill to return to work they would have to medically retire me and pay me a lump sum.
I wasn’t including sick time because sick time isn’t annual leave?
No now you're conflating long-term medical leave and disability insurance with sick days. Sick days are an annual allotment for taking days off because you have, say, the flu or a stomach bug.
Unlimited PTO is an accounting tactic to not accrue a liability for unused time off.
I’m American and work for a state university. I get seven weeks PTO and we get 2.5 weeks over the holidays during which we don’t have to use our PTO. So amounts to 9.5 weeks. I think this is pretty normal for state jobs here. People like to crap on this entire country but the truth is it’s so big that it just varies greatly.
That's completely fair, that seems like a very good job in terms of working conditions in the US context.
Absolutely it varies, but my point is that someone from a similar socioeconomic background to myself in the US would not have the same quality of life I have.
Like my father was illiterate and my mother taught disabled kids, and here I am with a totally normal entry level sort of job - I own a house, a car, I can go on vacation and my wife doesn't have to work. That's the American Dream right there, but I don't believe that that actually exists in the US any more (and it's being put increasingly out of reach here too) but it's still very possible here for an ordinary person to live within their means, avoid debt and make a good life for their family (albeit there are some places where that is very difficult, like Dublin, London etc. mostly because of high rents)
If you know, then your anecdote where daring to ask for that much time off- despite the policy being unlimited PTO- was “brazen” and “shameless” and an indication that “no-one knows how PTO works anymore” was… what, playing a villain?
What do you mean talking about the broken system is all you can do? The post repeatedly describes you actively working to prevent people getting as much leave as they wanted! Another thing you could do is… not do that?
This is going to ripe for an unpaid vacation lawsuit at some point.
Just wait till I tell you about American tipping, where the vast majority of people have been duped, and even made to feel morally guilty if they don’t pay a restaurant server’s or other arbitrarily similar wage. Tipping has got to be the most amazing scam in history, and NOBODY seems to care - indeed, they bafflingly defend it.
It’s creeping into the culture here in Ireland too. I blame American television.
The difference being that we have a really solid minimum wage. I do tip if the service is really good though, but it’s still very much optional here.
I mean, that’s what tipping should be. Optional extra something for stellar service. Here it’s pushed by the very companies. A pizza place will say, “the driving fee is not a tip, please tip your driver!” Grub hub straight up says the driver can see your tip when decided whether to take the order on. When you pay with a credit card, a tip suggestion of 15-20% (always getting bigger) is suggested on the thing. A server gets a base pay of 2.50$ or something an hour, may be more now, but it’s less then minimum wage because tips are expected to cover the rest. And having worked in restaurants for 15 years, servers almost ALWAYS go home with more money than the cooks. I’ve heard people say “if you can’t afford to tip, you can’t afford to go out.” If someone does a shitty job, people tip because “that’s how they make their money, I can’t just stuff them”. Again, my only question is: why the hell is this the customer’s responsibility? Why are we made to feel bad when we don’t tip for purposefully shitty service. It’s so ingrained into us that even saying this stuff to other people as a thought experiment makes them look at you like a leper. It’s a mass collusion that companies are QUITE happy with.
No offense but… I’ll take my American quality of life every day of the way over anywhere in the UK. It’s a trade.
The US has the lowest life expectancy among comparable high income Anglophone countries, and Ireland isn't in the UK.
Ironically, the low life expectancy is dragged down by the low-income folks, of which we have a lot. It's really hard to speak generalities about the USA because the regional and class variation is so enormous.
That’s my point. I’m not claiming that every single European is better off than every single American - I’m claiming that the average working class European is better off than the average working class American.
Yes, PTO is why people have low life expectancy. (Oh wait, it’s not.)
Lazy Europeans.
If working is so great why is retirement the goal?
Unlimited PTO = 4 weeks made my eyes wide too. wtf. That's what I get after 10 years of hard work. That's not unlimited.
Oh we know. I work for an Irish company. Lots of Irish transplants in my office practically in tears over their PTO allotment. (They like the paycheck though.)
Oh -- Ireland. Chuckle. A most moral and functional entity.
I have a lot of beef with the state, I don't think it's moral at all and it's massively dependant on enabling international tax avoidance. The Republic as laid out in the proclamation has never been achieved and I hope to see it become a reality.
Don't mistake my contempt for your government for contempt of your people, nor for love of government here.
Fair enough! I loved Ireland when I visited some decades ago.
I imagine it's the same for Americans - I love my country and my people, but I loathe the government and the ruling class. The people in charge are so totally unlike the ordinary people, I think this is probably the same in every country.
The place is run by neoliberal shills who are bought and paid for by anonymous, international capital that has no loyalty to anywhere and the people deserve better. Same story all over the world isn't it.
This honestly reads like a paradoy. Are you honestly bragging about convincing someone to quit and move state with statements you didn't belive purely to solve a minor inconvenience?
All while presenting yourself as a benevolent saint for allowing someone to work from home for a few days over the holidays?
At my son’s college, the dean said that a student he was meeting with about a disciplinary matter tried to hand him his phone, saying “My mother would like to speak with you.” The dean was stunned, then pulled out his own phone and said, “wait, I’ll call my mother and they can talk to each other.”
Genius move.
I was hiring work study students to help me on a research study. One candidate’s father emailed me citing his connection to the institution. I did give my boss a heads up but I didn’t hire her. At her age I would have been mortified.
I’m gonna use that one.
If your policy says "unlimited," you shouldn't penalize people for having the brass balls to ask for a lot. Words mean things. I was penalized at work for taking two weeks of PTO when my parent was in hospice and dying. I was at an organization which prided itself on being employee friendly. It would be way simpler if people would simply accurately state their policies and then we can deal with the cultural problems.
I don't think it takes brass balls to ask for something offered at time of hire. Call it 4 weeks if it's 4 weeks.
The problem is US labor law says if you offer limited paid vacation and it’s unused it has to be cashed out, so it sits on the company’s balance sheet like an imaginary lead weight. “Unlimited” vacation is partly a workaround for that, and originally a genuine benefit for employees, that they don’t have to tolerate nonsense like not being able to take a break at Christmas if they just started a new job.
If you call it unlimited and your handbook says 4 weeks i look forward to a day when the lawyers make millions in back pay
Wait. Nonsense? You’re being sarcastic, right? I will agree that our systems and our culture suck on this issue.
I was surprised by the different reactions to this, actually. From my point of view, admittedly not from the US originally, but my US employers have usually done this, most office jobs are shut down from Christmas Eve to New Years day, either as formal holiday days or as "the office is closed, so if you don't have PTO for the time its compulsory unpaid leave", and its not that odd for people to pad that out to a full 2 weeks. The position in the original article - basically we're going to insist you work even though there isn't any work to do - rather than offering unpaid leave is really strange to me.
I'm not sure I understand the opposing view. Yes, sophisticated employees will talk about planned vacation during the hiring process, but not everyone is a sophisticated employee, and it seems harsh to demand pointless presenteeism as a consequence for lack of sophistication.
Yeah, I'd say 10 weeks is outside the norm for most industries.
What is wrong with you?
It’s the holidays. Give people time off. This is not a hard problem. It was your choice to hire someone just before Christmas, and an accounting method is not a defense of inhumanity.
Exactly. I cannot even imagine what could be this important that someone couldn’t get a week at Christmas. And for Chrissakes, why does your time need to accrue *before* you’re allowed to spend time with your family at the holidays? Americans really are getting screwed so hard. Is the total destruction of family life and societal underpinnings like religious holidays worth a few extra bucks earned? Where is the red line? The saddest thing is, it’s all for naught insofar as the company (whatever it is) would probably be much more profitable and run much better if only the employees were more relaxed and treated like humans
See, it's not that Americans are "getting screwed", it's that they actively and visciously screw each other as a matter of course. Throwing your peers and subordinates under a bus to get ahead is as natural as breathing in their culture, it's just how business is done. You wring the sponge of disposable people's lives as hard as you can because you know that if you leave a thin dime of value in them it's just going to be taken by the next guy. Kill or be killed, eat or be eaten, fuck or get fucked. It's the American way and as long as the line goes up then the ends justify the means.
I'm honestly looking forward to seeing what happens when the line stops going up. People in the US flip out when the GDP grows marginally slower than expected. If it was to ever drop in a significant way I fully expect out-and-out cannibalism to take hold. You think the cartels are bad? Let's see how Chad and Stacey suburbanite react when their Tahoe costs a week's wages to refuel and cartons of eggs are a luxury to be auctioned off and concealed at the bottom of the bag for the trip home.
for as long as fiat currency keeps getting printed with the swipe of a keyboard and for as long as people keep *believing* that currency actually has value, I suppose the line will continue heading up. Although there do seem to be some wobbles even now that we didn’t see in previous years, so who knows? But totally agree with you, it ain’t gonna be pretty when it goes tits up. Also agree re the screwing over culture…so so disheartening
Fiat currency relies on the steely nerve and ruthless commitment to technocratic expertise of the Central Bankers in order to function. Good thing there's no threat of politicisation, populist capture, or outright corruption present in the American state aparatus today. Otherwise that could have really dire consequences.
you keep saying “the system is broken” ….. so maybe help craft a new PTO policy that allows everyone, including new hires, to be fully present with their loved ones over the holidays?
Asking for PTO for Christmas is perfectly reasonable. Imo the “accrual” system for PTO is BS - everyone should just start with their full PTO (prorated for new hires obvi) to use throughout the year as they see fit.
I’ve worked several places that shut down fully the week between christmas and new years. This should be the norm - there are very few jobs that are truly urgent enough to necessitate working
during this time.
Instead of a holiday party, close your office from Dec. 24 to Jan. 2. That’s one thing employees will actually appreciate.
At organizations where I had the ability, I did give feedback on PTO policies to address these things (like pushing to close that week anyway) and also have advocated for improved parental leave policies. My ability to impact that varied based on the size of the organization and where decisions on holiday calendars, etc, were made.
I totally agree regarding the week between Christmas and New Years; I have yet to work any place where it was essential to stay open or where we couldn't have managed with very light coverage and communicated it was "emergencies only" to customers.
Problem solved. The rest is just whining.
“Psychological warfare disguised as a benefit” you really have to be broken inside to see people’s desire to be with their family as a psychological attack against you. Seriously, you’re insane. The irony of that sentence alone is appalling.
This is all absolutely incomprehensible as a European. Just utterly baffling
HR is really for the busy body mean girls isn’t it.
"Jessica, a brand new hire, was not going to add any value to the business..."
That's why they call it Human _Resources_, workers. You are a resource. You are a commodity. You make money for other people and get tossed scraps when your betters are feeling magnanimous. You are cattle. Slaves rowing the ship.
The little story of emotional manipulation and shadenfruede at Jessica's breakup is the rancid cherry on this shit cake of a narrative.
This is why I have worked every single day in my adult professional career in public education. Here I'm building the future, not making cold piles of cash for someone else who doesn't give two shits about me.
P.S. — If you are compelled to write, “I'm not a monster,” you are, in fact a monster. Cf, “I'm not a racist, but…”
You're either going to fire me or not. So I'm going to squeeze as much out of this company for myself, as you are to me. That's my philosophy. The threat of termination does NOTHING to me. I'll find another job, I always do. I think some employers still rely on their workforce being terrified of being fired, to keep them docile and acquiescent to their demands.
Easy to say if you don't have children or health issues that you rely on healthcare for. I'm not saying your wrong, but the workplace here knows it can hold this over people's heads with ease and that's what makes it so egregious.
Nothing is easy for me to say. I sometimes suffer through spoonerism.
Your point is well taken, and I believe this sentiment is what contributes to the "trapped" feeling so many individuals experience with their job, especially if they aren't confident in their ability to quickly turn around a job and/or there would be a lapse in healthcare coverage.
Which is why we must all, all of us that feel this tension, continue at every opportunity, to rail against the machine. My railing in this instance, just happens to be focused on squeezing as much out of a company as they squeeze me.
This is exactly why I'll never work in corporate America. These policies are atrocious and they turn the people enforcing them into footsoldiers who think they're doing someone a favor by letting them work from home over a holiday. My family owns a small business and I handle HR among other things. We can't afford to offer unlimited PTO, but we let employees take almost any time off they want without pay if they're out of PTO, and I can't remember ever denying anyone vacation time they requested. The project manager figures out who will cover the workload along with the owner; that's literally their job.
I can't believe I actually read a whole post about this nonsense. The company, this author, and many of the commenters seem to have forgotten that it's really as simple as treating others how you want to be treated.
I just turned 35. Starting my own business to help nonprofits and women-owned small businesses manage their time and resources, including Human Resources, better. I have certainly dealt w my share of confusing and frustrating young-employee behavior.
That said, I told my boss I was moving across the country. Of course it was up to him whether he wanted to continue working with me in a remote capacity. He told me multiple times he wished I wasn’t leaving or that I he wished I would wait to leave. This made my brain explode. I wasn’t asking him if or when I could move.
There is a bizarre expectation with the older generation that a company owns the employee.
I've encountered some of this before and, unfortunately, I think earlier in career, I tolerated some of this and/or let it make me feel important instead of realizing I was being taken advantage of.
But he’s actually the best boss I’ve ever had! I have chronic health issues and am able to come or go as necessary. I’ve been able to turn down projects that conflict w my moral values, no questions asked. So it’s not that I think he thinks of me as a cog in a machine, rather that orientation is something he, himself, carries.
I swear to God, some of the people in this comment section have never had jobs.
It's a different world that makes zero sense to outsiders. 2 weeks notice is expected but not enforced and people might job hop every 18 months. They shrug when people leave. And then they also tie themselves into pretzels worrying about people taking vacations.
Hint, the sky doesn't fall down, approve almost everything, all the time in most jobs. Flexibility is almost free.
How bad is company culture if managers are afraid of the psychological impact of some workers taking leave.
A company that's so stuck that it would have to deny all leave for 3 or 4 months must have huge operational difficulties. How would they keep going if things are truly that bad?
You can have angry burnt-out employees and high attrition who take their leave days when they leave. Or you can have appreciative well-rested employees who stay a little longer. And it costs the same. All you have to do is stop hating the people who make you money.